Every time you post a comic it’s like getting a slap in the face and then immediately a kiss on the forehead. Thanks for letting me know I’m not alone.
My youngest child (is there a gender neutral noun for son/daughter? We tend to use a made-up Norwegian word which means something like "snoogums", just because it's a nice word) is on this journey. They're 12 and will have an easier time of it than you've had, partly because you've been there to help them see that it's OK. She-Ra and Lumberjanes are huge, safe pieces of comfort to them on their journey and it has also helped the rest of my family (where I'm the only non-queer person, it turns out) tremendously. We owe you so much. Thank you for your honesty, wrapped in amazing art. For a guy pushing 50 I've been a good dad and husband to my wonderful, unusual family, but there's so much to learn, so much to simply get used to. It would have been a lot harder without you. All the love.
1) child is the gender neutral term. They are your CHILD.
2) As a CHILD they should not have queer attitudes forced upon them. If your child is biologically male, he is your son. If he likes playing with dolls and make up, he is your son. If he likes other boys, he is still your son. Saying otherwise just teaches him that only girls should like those things, and that if any girls don't like those things, then they are not girls. If your child is biologically female, she is your daughter. If she likes playing outside, with trucks, wearing pants, if she likes other girls, she is still your daughter. If she tells you she wants to be a boy, maybe consider that is because she is uncomfortable being sexualized, limited, dismissed, because of her biological sex, and she sees that boys do not have to deal with those things. Letting her "become a boy" just reinforces in her mind that girls deserve to be treated that way.
3) I am pro-gender neutrality. Clothes, characteristics, likes and dislikes, personality - none of that is inherently gendered, and we shoyld stop labeling any of it with gender, masculinity, femininity. However, it is scientific fact that there are two sexes. That's it. We should not assign culture to one sex or the other, especially if an assignation indicates one sex is inferior to the other. The sexes are biologically different, on physiological and anatomical levels. That's all the words male and female mean. Male and female do not mean fashion, they do not mean levels of intellext, they do not mean hobbies.
So, why are you teaching your child they have to pick a gender? Their pronouns should be based on biological fact. Not what they feel like wearing today.
1) Child is gender neutral, but also more neutral in the sense that it has no connotations concerning this particular child's bond to me or any parent, which is what son/daughter express. Speaking as a father I could say "my child", of course, but especially in Norwegian this doesn't quite work how I would like it. It's less loving and more possessive, if that makes sense.
2) It's not about picking a gender, or forcing any kind of choice, or even raising this as an issue. My child has expressed their non binary identity for years, on their own. At least since they were seven. It goes deeper than just wanting to do "boy things" instead of "girl things".
Like many parents probably do, I have gently pulled the other way, doing the "Yeah, we'll see / You're not fully cooked yet" -thing. Always with love and respect, though. It's not about forcing anything on anyone.
This summer, now aged 12, they gently took me and their mother aside and explained that this isn't going away, and while they're happy with their body, they want us to use gender neutral pronouns. We see no reason not to.
3) I agree that uncoupling sex and culture is a good thing, although most societies aren't there to the extent you or I would want. I agree that biology is different from sexual identity. My child is perfectly happy with their breasts and uterus. They're still not a girl, though. Is it just a matter of language? It doesn't really matter, at least not to me. Language is important.
I do not think it is up to you or me to tell others how they want to define themselves. Contrary to what you seem to believe, my child (or yours) will ultimately define their own identity regardless of what I would want for them. That is called growing up. All I can do is advise, then accept or reject. And I would never reject anyone, especially not my family.
It's been a journey, though. Not because of prejudice, I think I've always been pretty accepting in that regard, but because changes like that in MY life (not my child, they haven't changed, remember?) takes getting used to.
As I mentioned in the post I'm the only non-queer person in my household. I'm also on the Asperger spectrum. Change is HARD for me. My wife came out to me as bi only a few years ago, my youngest started expressing the idea of being non binary at roughly the same time (without knowing about my wife). To them this is all about liberation. I enjoy seeing them flower and grow immensely, but I'm not gonna lie, it's been a journey.
In a nutshell: Neither me, Noell, She-Ra or Lumberjanes turned my son pan, my wife bi or my youngest child into anything. It just gave all of us wonderful stories and characters we could relate to together on our journey. And for that I am eternally grateful.
I think you ought to go back and read the original comment again, and then take some time to unpack why you projected so much that wasn't there.
That said, there are two core problems with your argument:
One, biological sex is not cleanly seperated into male and female (intersex people are not just an anomaly that can be ignored). Many trans people have actual biological differences to cis people that factors into their discomfort (this is probably why more than two genders have been observed in cultures that aren't built on a cesspool of bigotry); adults are not the only ones who might experience these differences.
Two, while you absolutely should teach your children that their preferences and interests are not gendered, it's detrimental in it's own right to disallow your child from experimenting with different social and linguistic aspects of gender. There's really no reason that pronouns even need to be tied to gender, and there's especially no need for a child to communicate their biological sex to everyone. Those biological differences might matter to a doctor, or a partner when they're older, but not the general public.
Our society should not put so much emphasis on gender, but it does. Whether or not the parents push certain expectations, the world around them will. It's not fair to force a child to grow up in a role that makes them uncomfortable (or worse).
...Coming back to this because I wrote it while a bit grumpy and I'm not really sure I made my point super clear.
So, to try this again: the language we ascribe to gender/sex is, in its own right, arbitrary because sex is not actually a clean binary, and those words were made for and within a heavily (and unnecessarily) gendered society. Our efforts to decouple our sense of worth or how we should behave from the genitals we were born with should not include forcing our children to announce their own biological sex to the world, especially not a world that will treat them in ways that could cause immense dysphoria based on their sex. All the parental support in the world will not change this.
I don't really expect to change your mind with any of this, but I hope I've at least provided something interesting to think about and/or research.
every time i read this comic it hits so right, but fuck, the part about "aa my hips" "youre literally fine" followed directly by the "please fill this card out so i can know what to be insecure about"-- fuck i have never felt my transness so accurately pinpointed
"I want to be both, I want to be neither, I want to be beautiful, I want to be confusing." There's such a poetic pulse to that and I feel so seen by it in the very best way. Some days, I want to bring it all in, paint a little bit of every gender expression onto my sharp-edged canvas. Other days, I want that same canvas to be transparent, let everyone's eyes see straight through it and miss noticing me entirely. It's a lot and I'm only now starting to build the courage to let both lights shine in their own time. But this this this, it's just the reminder I needed. That sort of freedom is out there and I want it - selfishly, but I want it. Thank you thank you. It's almost cliche to say online, but this piece really gives me life.
I started low-dose T exactly 2 months ago. Last night, I felt incredibly dysphoric - but in such a way and to a degree that I've not experienced in my 34 years. I felt so anxious, confused, and alone last night and this morning... then I read this and sobbed lol. There are words and images here that hit so close to home that my only emotional response was to cry in relief for feeling genuinely understood by a stranger. While I always appreciate and often relate to your posts about gender, this one is particularly helpful. Thank you for what feels like a virtual hug <3
Reading this story, your journey hit almost too hard and answered so many questions I had about myself. Here I thought I was alone and selfish for not choosing a side with gender. I didn't even know I could choose be everything and still be ok. Thank you so much!
I wanted to be the powerful women because women are so beautiful and strong. But the idea of being a boy seemed to distant. I really relate to this 🏳️⚧️⚧
Why can't men be beautiful? What specifically makes being a boy distant? The idea of a boy? What does that mean? If your idea of a boy, which obviously does not include *being* biologically male, what does it include?
Being a boy is in the distant future when I know am ready to accept my masculinity and tell the world I’m a man. I’m a boy. I have always been but no one’s knows because it’s hidden.I know who I am I want to be a boy who is handsome. I want to be masculine and brave. Of corse men can be beautiful but I don’t want to. I want to accept my femininity is not my goal. I go not want strangers to see me and think wow he’s so pretty. I want to be handsome and I want my head to math my body. I am a trans youth still figuring out who I really am. I am someone who is trying to be myself when he is hidden under long hair and dresses that have been forced along my entire life. I hope this helps you understand.
I'd gladly write a more elaborate answer because this post makes me feel SO. MANY. THINGS! about gender and my own thoughts and coming-out process (as some woman-adjacent work in progress). But. The only thing in my mind right now is strong gratitude and wanting to pour buckets of affection on you for writing and drawing this, it makes all this feel more, more, more alright? Valid? Real? It gives a visibility and a sense of normalcy to all these pre-realization trans thoughts that fill me with so much relief.
Is this why you wrote Nimona? Did the concept of a powerful, unknowable entity that wanted to be themself resonated with you in a way the modern stereotypes of gender didn't?
Yeah, his coming-out definitely shone a new light on Nimona - exposing a layer that had always been here, somehow inconsciously I presume. I mean, a shapeshifter that doesn't want to choose, bottling up their trauma and anger against a society that considers them a monster and wants to dissect and harness them? In retrospect, it seems so painfully obvious...
Wanting to obliterate gender and embrace all aspects of it is what makes this all so... freaking confusing!! But giving into the paradox is also really freeing. This has been my experience at least but man is it anxiety provoking. I love these comics, thank you.
How about obliterate gender by no longer gendering things? Ever consider that? Sex is the only binary, gender is just a pool of characteristics assigned to a sex. Gender should be abolished. Masculinity should not make you a boy or make it a boy day. It makes me so sad, the implications that a woman cannot have those things and remain a woman. Gender and nonbinary discourse is inherently misogynistic.
I disagree with your sentiments. I never said that women cannot have/display masculinity. Gender is more than just characteristics, it's a feeling and thought you have about your identity. Sex is also not binary. There is everything from male to female to intersex and all the different ways that looks like. You also state that we should no longer gender things (a statement which I actually agree with) but then go on to say that non-binary discourse is inherently misogynistic. These are 2 conflicting ideas
Just gonna print this out and put it in the gender field of every form I ever fill out. Thank you a million times over for sharing these comics. I feel seen.
This is incredible. I absolutely relate to and understand both wanting to destroy gender and embrace it. As always, thank you so much for sharing your stories.
That's part of the problem. People cannot just "destroy gender" they HAVE to label it for themselves. I have been reading your comments, Holly, and you are being very harmful to these people who are just reading a comic and taking Nates idea and saying how good it is for him. There is no point to destroying gender, as you say, because that's all gender is, is LABELS. What are you gonna do without these labels?
Not everyone needs to label. Some people don’t feel the need and that’s perfectly valid for them. It’s also perfectly valid to label yourself in a lot of ways. Only you can say which is truly harmful to yourself. Labels just help people feel better and it doesn’t matter all that much if you believe that gender doesn’t exist. Just respect others if they’re not harming someone else (or themselves) and leave people to their joy. Harming themselves or others is definitely different depending on the person but these comments and this comic definitely isn’t doing either of those things and please leave this alone
"The weight of them" resonated with me to a painful degree. And now this one if helping me figure out my own insecurities post breast reduction. Thank you. So much.
"What sick motherfucker put this head on this body" is such a perfect encapsulation of how I feel about my own reflection. Thank you so much for sharing this.
I spent an incredibly long time looking for a version of masculinity that would make me feel like I could be okay.
Ironically, I found it. And I still didn't want it. So that was when I knew something had to change.
Thanks for writing this; it is so, so, so accessible and relatable, even though I don't share every aspect of your experience. Maybe not even most. But the way you write these really makes me feel seen.
"What sick motherfucker put this head on this body"... Dude, I just can't imagine how tough it must feel to see yourself trapped in another gender's body, and to top it up, having to struggle your way within an strictly binary-built world and "reality"... And yet thanks to your trials and tribulations, and to the pains and pleasures available only to those capable of vibrating between genders at the speed of light, but so well expressed through your art, one gets to see a glimpse of a more real Reality, beyond gender and duality, and to wonder what awaits us beyond all the you's and me's and he's and she's... So thanks God (or the Goddess or whatever) you exist! <3<3<3
Every time you post a comic it’s like getting a slap in the face and then immediately a kiss on the forehead. Thanks for letting me know I’m not alone.
My youngest child (is there a gender neutral noun for son/daughter? We tend to use a made-up Norwegian word which means something like "snoogums", just because it's a nice word) is on this journey. They're 12 and will have an easier time of it than you've had, partly because you've been there to help them see that it's OK. She-Ra and Lumberjanes are huge, safe pieces of comfort to them on their journey and it has also helped the rest of my family (where I'm the only non-queer person, it turns out) tremendously. We owe you so much. Thank you for your honesty, wrapped in amazing art. For a guy pushing 50 I've been a good dad and husband to my wonderful, unusual family, but there's so much to learn, so much to simply get used to. It would have been a lot harder without you. All the love.
1) child is the gender neutral term. They are your CHILD.
2) As a CHILD they should not have queer attitudes forced upon them. If your child is biologically male, he is your son. If he likes playing with dolls and make up, he is your son. If he likes other boys, he is still your son. Saying otherwise just teaches him that only girls should like those things, and that if any girls don't like those things, then they are not girls. If your child is biologically female, she is your daughter. If she likes playing outside, with trucks, wearing pants, if she likes other girls, she is still your daughter. If she tells you she wants to be a boy, maybe consider that is because she is uncomfortable being sexualized, limited, dismissed, because of her biological sex, and she sees that boys do not have to deal with those things. Letting her "become a boy" just reinforces in her mind that girls deserve to be treated that way.
3) I am pro-gender neutrality. Clothes, characteristics, likes and dislikes, personality - none of that is inherently gendered, and we shoyld stop labeling any of it with gender, masculinity, femininity. However, it is scientific fact that there are two sexes. That's it. We should not assign culture to one sex or the other, especially if an assignation indicates one sex is inferior to the other. The sexes are biologically different, on physiological and anatomical levels. That's all the words male and female mean. Male and female do not mean fashion, they do not mean levels of intellext, they do not mean hobbies.
So, why are you teaching your child they have to pick a gender? Their pronouns should be based on biological fact. Not what they feel like wearing today.
1) Child is gender neutral, but also more neutral in the sense that it has no connotations concerning this particular child's bond to me or any parent, which is what son/daughter express. Speaking as a father I could say "my child", of course, but especially in Norwegian this doesn't quite work how I would like it. It's less loving and more possessive, if that makes sense.
2) It's not about picking a gender, or forcing any kind of choice, or even raising this as an issue. My child has expressed their non binary identity for years, on their own. At least since they were seven. It goes deeper than just wanting to do "boy things" instead of "girl things".
Like many parents probably do, I have gently pulled the other way, doing the "Yeah, we'll see / You're not fully cooked yet" -thing. Always with love and respect, though. It's not about forcing anything on anyone.
This summer, now aged 12, they gently took me and their mother aside and explained that this isn't going away, and while they're happy with their body, they want us to use gender neutral pronouns. We see no reason not to.
3) I agree that uncoupling sex and culture is a good thing, although most societies aren't there to the extent you or I would want. I agree that biology is different from sexual identity. My child is perfectly happy with their breasts and uterus. They're still not a girl, though. Is it just a matter of language? It doesn't really matter, at least not to me. Language is important.
I do not think it is up to you or me to tell others how they want to define themselves. Contrary to what you seem to believe, my child (or yours) will ultimately define their own identity regardless of what I would want for them. That is called growing up. All I can do is advise, then accept or reject. And I would never reject anyone, especially not my family.
It's been a journey, though. Not because of prejudice, I think I've always been pretty accepting in that regard, but because changes like that in MY life (not my child, they haven't changed, remember?) takes getting used to.
As I mentioned in the post I'm the only non-queer person in my household. I'm also on the Asperger spectrum. Change is HARD for me. My wife came out to me as bi only a few years ago, my youngest started expressing the idea of being non binary at roughly the same time (without knowing about my wife). To them this is all about liberation. I enjoy seeing them flower and grow immensely, but I'm not gonna lie, it's been a journey.
In a nutshell: Neither me, Noell, She-Ra or Lumberjanes turned my son pan, my wife bi or my youngest child into anything. It just gave all of us wonderful stories and characters we could relate to together on our journey. And for that I am eternally grateful.
I think you ought to go back and read the original comment again, and then take some time to unpack why you projected so much that wasn't there.
That said, there are two core problems with your argument:
One, biological sex is not cleanly seperated into male and female (intersex people are not just an anomaly that can be ignored). Many trans people have actual biological differences to cis people that factors into their discomfort (this is probably why more than two genders have been observed in cultures that aren't built on a cesspool of bigotry); adults are not the only ones who might experience these differences.
Two, while you absolutely should teach your children that their preferences and interests are not gendered, it's detrimental in it's own right to disallow your child from experimenting with different social and linguistic aspects of gender. There's really no reason that pronouns even need to be tied to gender, and there's especially no need for a child to communicate their biological sex to everyone. Those biological differences might matter to a doctor, or a partner when they're older, but not the general public.
Our society should not put so much emphasis on gender, but it does. Whether or not the parents push certain expectations, the world around them will. It's not fair to force a child to grow up in a role that makes them uncomfortable (or worse).
...Coming back to this because I wrote it while a bit grumpy and I'm not really sure I made my point super clear.
So, to try this again: the language we ascribe to gender/sex is, in its own right, arbitrary because sex is not actually a clean binary, and those words were made for and within a heavily (and unnecessarily) gendered society. Our efforts to decouple our sense of worth or how we should behave from the genitals we were born with should not include forcing our children to announce their own biological sex to the world, especially not a world that will treat them in ways that could cause immense dysphoria based on their sex. All the parental support in the world will not change this.
I don't really expect to change your mind with any of this, but I hope I've at least provided something interesting to think about and/or research.
Yet again, a pretty harmful comment
every time i read this comic it hits so right, but fuck, the part about "aa my hips" "youre literally fine" followed directly by the "please fill this card out so i can know what to be insecure about"-- fuck i have never felt my transness so accurately pinpointed
"I want to be both, I want to be neither, I want to be beautiful, I want to be confusing." There's such a poetic pulse to that and I feel so seen by it in the very best way. Some days, I want to bring it all in, paint a little bit of every gender expression onto my sharp-edged canvas. Other days, I want that same canvas to be transparent, let everyone's eyes see straight through it and miss noticing me entirely. It's a lot and I'm only now starting to build the courage to let both lights shine in their own time. But this this this, it's just the reminder I needed. That sort of freedom is out there and I want it - selfishly, but I want it. Thank you thank you. It's almost cliche to say online, but this piece really gives me life.
I started low-dose T exactly 2 months ago. Last night, I felt incredibly dysphoric - but in such a way and to a degree that I've not experienced in my 34 years. I felt so anxious, confused, and alone last night and this morning... then I read this and sobbed lol. There are words and images here that hit so close to home that my only emotional response was to cry in relief for feeling genuinely understood by a stranger. While I always appreciate and often relate to your posts about gender, this one is particularly helpful. Thank you for what feels like a virtual hug <3
Reading this story, your journey hit almost too hard and answered so many questions I had about myself. Here I thought I was alone and selfish for not choosing a side with gender. I didn't even know I could choose be everything and still be ok. Thank you so much!
I wanted to be the powerful women because women are so beautiful and strong. But the idea of being a boy seemed to distant. I really relate to this 🏳️⚧️⚧
Why can't men be beautiful? What specifically makes being a boy distant? The idea of a boy? What does that mean? If your idea of a boy, which obviously does not include *being* biologically male, what does it include?
Being a boy is in the distant future when I know am ready to accept my masculinity and tell the world I’m a man. I’m a boy. I have always been but no one’s knows because it’s hidden.I know who I am I want to be a boy who is handsome. I want to be masculine and brave. Of corse men can be beautiful but I don’t want to. I want to accept my femininity is not my goal. I go not want strangers to see me and think wow he’s so pretty. I want to be handsome and I want my head to math my body. I am a trans youth still figuring out who I really am. I am someone who is trying to be myself when he is hidden under long hair and dresses that have been forced along my entire life. I hope this helps you understand.
Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.
I'd gladly write a more elaborate answer because this post makes me feel SO. MANY. THINGS! about gender and my own thoughts and coming-out process (as some woman-adjacent work in progress). But. The only thing in my mind right now is strong gratitude and wanting to pour buckets of affection on you for writing and drawing this, it makes all this feel more, more, more alright? Valid? Real? It gives a visibility and a sense of normalcy to all these pre-realization trans thoughts that fill me with so much relief.
Thanks.
Is this why you wrote Nimona? Did the concept of a powerful, unknowable entity that wanted to be themself resonated with you in a way the modern stereotypes of gender didn't?
Yeah, his coming-out definitely shone a new light on Nimona - exposing a layer that had always been here, somehow inconsciously I presume. I mean, a shapeshifter that doesn't want to choose, bottling up their trauma and anger against a society that considers them a monster and wants to dissect and harness them? In retrospect, it seems so painfully obvious...
Wanting to obliterate gender and embrace all aspects of it is what makes this all so... freaking confusing!! But giving into the paradox is also really freeing. This has been my experience at least but man is it anxiety provoking. I love these comics, thank you.
How about obliterate gender by no longer gendering things? Ever consider that? Sex is the only binary, gender is just a pool of characteristics assigned to a sex. Gender should be abolished. Masculinity should not make you a boy or make it a boy day. It makes me so sad, the implications that a woman cannot have those things and remain a woman. Gender and nonbinary discourse is inherently misogynistic.
I disagree with your sentiments. I never said that women cannot have/display masculinity. Gender is more than just characteristics, it's a feeling and thought you have about your identity. Sex is also not binary. There is everything from male to female to intersex and all the different ways that looks like. You also state that we should no longer gender things (a statement which I actually agree with) but then go on to say that non-binary discourse is inherently misogynistic. These are 2 conflicting ideas
Popping in to clear up a common misconception; intersex proves the binary, is a medical condition, and does not belong in identity politics.
https://star-mut.tumblr.com/post/181564278076/sorry-i-know-this-is-a-really-dumb-question-but
Just gonna print this out and put it in the gender field of every form I ever fill out. Thank you a million times over for sharing these comics. I feel seen.
This is incredible. I absolutely relate to and understand both wanting to destroy gender and embrace it. As always, thank you so much for sharing your stories.
Why not destroy gender and embrace individualism? Why do you have to label it?
That's part of the problem. People cannot just "destroy gender" they HAVE to label it for themselves. I have been reading your comments, Holly, and you are being very harmful to these people who are just reading a comic and taking Nates idea and saying how good it is for him. There is no point to destroying gender, as you say, because that's all gender is, is LABELS. What are you gonna do without these labels?
Not everyone needs to label. Some people don’t feel the need and that’s perfectly valid for them. It’s also perfectly valid to label yourself in a lot of ways. Only you can say which is truly harmful to yourself. Labels just help people feel better and it doesn’t matter all that much if you believe that gender doesn’t exist. Just respect others if they’re not harming someone else (or themselves) and leave people to their joy. Harming themselves or others is definitely different depending on the person but these comments and this comic definitely isn’t doing either of those things and please leave this alone
"The weight of them" resonated with me to a painful degree. And now this one if helping me figure out my own insecurities post breast reduction. Thank you. So much.
"What sick motherfucker put this head on this body" is such a perfect encapsulation of how I feel about my own reflection. Thank you so much for sharing this.
I spent an incredibly long time looking for a version of masculinity that would make me feel like I could be okay.
Ironically, I found it. And I still didn't want it. So that was when I knew something had to change.
Thanks for writing this; it is so, so, so accessible and relatable, even though I don't share every aspect of your experience. Maybe not even most. But the way you write these really makes me feel seen.
"What sick motherfucker put this head on this body"... Dude, I just can't imagine how tough it must feel to see yourself trapped in another gender's body, and to top it up, having to struggle your way within an strictly binary-built world and "reality"... And yet thanks to your trials and tribulations, and to the pains and pleasures available only to those capable of vibrating between genders at the speed of light, but so well expressed through your art, one gets to see a glimpse of a more real Reality, beyond gender and duality, and to wonder what awaits us beyond all the you's and me's and he's and she's... So thanks God (or the Goddess or whatever) you exist! <3<3<3